This is a difficult post.
The Globe and Mail newspaper this morning mentioned that Stig Larson died on this day in 2004. I mentioned this to a man I know who is a reader - a man I like and respect - and he said, "I really liked his books." This brought about a discussion that has gotten me thinking.
Now, as you may recall, the writing community was quite split on Larson's book 'The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo' when it first came out. Most authors I know, at the time, thought it needed severe editing. But others were more concerned with aspects of the content.
I remember being at the bar of the Drake Hotel in Toronto, a notorious hangout for crime writers like ourselves, and hearing the following from a well-known male crime writer sitting beside me. "Stig Larson was one sick puppy."
I asked him to elaborate. After all, he was a male thriller writer of some note. Here's what he said:
"That graphic torture scene of a young woman? We all know how long it takes to write a book. He would have been weeks writing that chapter. What kind of sicko could spend that much time devising ways to describe that kind of horrific torture?"
His words really hit home with a lot of us, all of whom were published crime authors.
Another male author at the table said, "He glorifies violence against women."
I write mainly heists and capers. My Goddaughter series is about a mob crime family, so I'm not exactly a cozy writer. In my short stories, I can go quite dark, but never to the point of torture. I can't write grim novels - I simply can't spend day after day in a dark world. It affects me mentally.
Violence is absolutely at the core of a lot of crime fiction. It's not the topic of violence that was at issue here. What my male author friends at The Drake were commenting on was the stunning increase in graphic description of heinous acts in fiction. It's not offstage in any way, in these books. But I think what bothered me today is the following: my fellow reader friend didn't even remember the torture scene that has haunted me for years. ( I won't go into details here.) His memory of the series was that of a woman getting her own back. Fair enough.
So I asked him: "Would you be able to read a scene in which a child is tortured in that way?"
He said: "No, definitely not. I'd have to put it down."
Telling, isn't it? And that of course is the issue that haunts me today. Those books of Stig Larson - and some like it that are extremely graphic in their abuse and murder of women - have done well. Readers seem to accept it as a means to advance a plot in which - hopefully - justice will be done in the end. (One could argue that if you are a woman killed in a horrible way, there is no justice, but that's a topic for another post.)
The end justifies the means now, so to speak. Or is it deeper than that? Does this reflect a deeper societal desensitization, nonchalance, or fatigue when it comes to the topic of violence against women?
My friend is not the only one. At some point, and I think it took off with the publishing of the Stig Larson books, the fiction reading society moved to embrace a more graphic description of violence against women as entertainment. And I have to admit, this bothers me.
Comments welcome. I'm struggling with this one and could use others' insights.
Melodie Campbell writes about the mob in Hamilton Ontario, with tongue firmly in cheek. You can get her books at all the usual suspects.
Most of the female victims of outlandish violence in print are young and pretty, suggesting a sexual angle to both the crime and its depiction. Larson's protagonist is a bit different in that she is a super hero type in her own right- I'm not sure that balances things out.
ReplyDeleteYou said it well, Janice. I am reminded of that Facebook poster that came out warning us women NEVER to wear matching bras and underwear (as always seen on TV victims.)
DeleteThe year I was an Edgar judge for best mystery novel, one of the submissions was what I can only call torture porn - which I gave a "0" ranking. I can't stand it & won't read it OR watch it.
ReplyDelete"Does this reflect a deeper societal desensitization, nonchalance, or fatigue when it comes to the topic of violence against women?" Oh, hell yes. Every morning I watch the news and the commercials are full of promos for the night shows and every ^&^@#^@ crime show is 30 seconds of guns, guns, guns, and very often a woman being terrorized, grabbed, or shown bound&gagged, weeping, waiting...
And of course there's a sexual angle, as Janice says - it's never an old woman, or an old fat white guy, or even a man.
We're a sick society, and getting sicker every day because this is assumed to be the way you sell stuff.
Eve, I was gratified to see that it was the male thriller writers at my table that were addressing the issue. I felt safer, perhaps, knowing that some men were also alarmed.
DeleteRemember the comment in the seventies, emerging from the glut of slasher films: they teach young women that, if you hear a strange noise in the basement or attic, change into your sexiest underwear before you go to investigate. It's still the objectification of women as well as the violence.
ReplyDeleteI tend to write strong female characters who can hold their own, but two of my novels involve graphic rape scenes. In one, the woman kills her attacker in self-defense, and in the other, the victim gets revenge later. A female writer friend reviewed the second book and her review included a trigger warning. One agent turned the book down because her first reader/screener stopped at that scene. It was vital to the plot, but I saw the women's side of it.
For whatever reason, torture porn still thrives, too. BTW, I thought the Girl...series was incredibly over-rated. I plowed through the first one and never bothered with the others. You don't have to taste crap twice to figure out that it won't get better.
I don't remember a book where a man is subjected to the same kind of treatment our women characters face regularly. If there are any out there, I don't know them.
It's easy to blame society and the previous President, but the rage has been present for a long time and we need to acknowledge it openly before we can do anything about it. I'm not sure exactly how we do that, but I agree that it's necessary.
So appreciate your comments, Steve. I am pondering the rage that seems to be against women, or at least young women. I have no idea what to do about it.
DeleteA reader, not a writer...
ReplyDeleteI basically have no use for graphic depictions of violence, regardless of the age, gender, political orientation, whatever of the victim. I recognize that, particularly in spy novels, the *fact* of torture often has to be clear, but pages of the depiction of it not so much.
There's a torture (by the cops; it consists of slapping a character around) scene in Rex Stout's THE RED BOX. Stout makes clear Archie Goodwin's disapproval of this behavior by the cops, although he does nothing to intervene. It's a very minor part of an otherwise good book, but I skip over it when I re-read the book.
DeleteDon, I so agree. Our imaginations as readers should do the job. If the writer is good, then we don't need to be hand fed every detail. Thanks for commenting!
DeleteI have avoided the Stig Larsson books because of the reviews that mention the graphic nature of the books. Graphically violent scenes stick in my brain for life. I have learned from experience not to read them. As with you, it's bad for my mental health.
ReplyDeleteSteve: For fiction where men are tied up and sexually tortured or raped, I can only think of two mainstream examples. The Daniel Craig James Bond movie with the 'seatless chair torture scene' is in this category. Also, the male lead in Diana Gabaldon's Outlander is raped and tortured in the book. The torture is on the page, the rape is revealed after the fact. I haven't watched the video adaptation to see how they handled this scene on screen. Don't want to know.
Anon, that scene in Outlander was horrible. I turned off the series then and did not go back (even though my Rowena Through the Wall fantasy series was billed as "Outlander meets Sex and the City" so I had a personal interest.) Thanks for commenting - I'm glad I'm not the only one getting more and more bothered by this.
DeleteAnon, I forgot about Casino Royale, probably because I read it back in the 60s and haven't seen a Bond pic since Roger Moore. But yes, that scene would definitely qualify. Thank you (?) for reminding me. It's interesting that Casino Royale was the first James Bond novel, and they kept going after that scene...
DeleteI'm glad you mentioned the Gabaldon rape and torture. My (very adult) son tried to read that book and that's all he could remember of it. I've never tried that series--always meant to--but I sure don't need to after learning this. I wonder what the author was thinking and if she writes a lot of that.
DeleteThe Outlander books are brilliant on so many levels that I'm sorry readers miss them altogether for that reason. There are many positive sex scenes in the context of relationships and two rapes of women in the context of plot in the course of eight massive books; the trauma of the male rape haunts its survivor, an exceptionally strong and complex character, throughout the series. There's nothing gratuitous or prurient in this case, though readers can certainly skim or skip if they choose.
DeleteI share the concerns raised here. I think there's a desensitization process that takes hold after continuous exposure to graphic violence, whether it's on a screen or the printed page. The repetition normalizes the behavior, and our society is the worse for it. Stories can be dark without pandering to twisted proclivities. There's a line between acceptable levels of violence and grisly, pornographic detail. I know it when I see it.
ReplyDeleteThank you for this comment, Wendy. I've had some readers tell me that what they read 'is only a story.' It's not real to them. I find I'm quite affected by what I read, and have nightmares at night. And maybe there's the whole thing about being a woman, and thus imagining it happening to you.
DeleteIt kind of goes with the territory, doesn't it? Murder mysteries? Not that I approve of torture porn, but terrible things happen irl. I seem to recall Hannibal in the Silence Of The Lamb stories tortured men but defended women. Don't know, just rambling thoughts here.
ReplyDeleteWell, most murder mysteries are not graphic. Thrillers tend to be more graphic. I guess I am just noticing a leap in what readers are accepting, and it has left me behind.
DeleteThe opening of one of the Cormoran Strike books by Robert Galbraith (and there's an author who shouldn't have to stoop to cheap trix)had a bride-to-be open a package and find a woman's leg inside. Appalling (and unnecessary). It's as if some authors try harder and harder to up the ante, to recreate the thrill they enjoyed with their first fix of violent porn. Most actual crime is pretty straightforward! No torture necessary. And, anyway, a psychotic villain usually isn't very interesting.
ReplyDeleteV, I agree with you about psychotic villains. I find them ho-hum. What is REALLY interesting in a crime book is motivation. What would tempt someone to finally step over the line, when I wouldn't? I find books about serial killers boring for that reason. Thanks for commenting!
DeleteI don't understand the need to get graphic. Violence can be elegantly written as any other uncomfortable prose. Over-focus on violent details (vs. motivations, implications, etc.) at some point speaks about the writer as much as the story.
ReplyDeleteBob - that is brilliantly said. A writer should be able to make us feel the emotion without telling every single detail. I think of horror writers like Stephen King, who are so good at making us feel 'creep' before anything is even seen.
DeleteI've never read Stig Larsson's books, or Silence of the Lambs or Outlander, & can't think of any fiction I've read with much violence against women on the page. True crime, now, that's completely different!!!
ReplyDeleteI think if we are reading True Crime, we expect the details. For that reason, I don't read True Crime for entertainment. Thanks for commenting!
DeleteHi Mel,
ReplyDeleteI'm so glad that you wrote about this issue. The torture scene in Stig Larsson's book bothered me a great deal. Why did he include it? Why give it emphasis in the plot unless he was, as your friend put it, a very sick puppy. Unfortunately, they tap into a dark vein of misogyny which runs through most of the world's society. Even more sick, they monetize it. Time to shine a light on this darkness and destroy the monsters!
Dark vein of misogyny - yes, that is exactly what I fear. That the vein has grown in the last decade or two, and is reflected in fiction as well as life. That they monetize it, well, you've said it brilliantly.
DeleteI'm glad to see this post drew so many comments. It clearly touched a nerve.
ReplyDeleteOne point raised more than once is whether the violence is necessary - for plot or motivation. A friend of mine commented, after reading GONE BABY GONE, that the predatory sexual abuse could and should have taken place off-stage. (You see the aftermath, and are left to imagine the actual horror, but what you see is bad enough.) I thought it was necessary, so you understood the decisions the vigilante cops make. Your math may differ. But in Lehane's book, nothing about it is remotely voyeuristic.
Gratuitous is gratuitous, and we recognize it. That violence so casually visited on the bad girls in horror movies is a trope, and easily satirized, but that doesn't make it any less poisonous. It's actually more dangerous that it's regarded as wallpaper.
Genre conventions reflect commonly-held attitudes. I don't have a prescription, but starving them of oxygen is a start.
David, thank you for the info about Gone Baby Gone. I can tell you that I would have stopped reading when it got to the point - so in fact, for me, I would never get to the reason for it. I guess I am disturbed by the fact that so many woman I've talked to have said the same thing - that when torture is visited upon young women, they stop reading, but many men don't. I don't know what to think about that.
DeleteI think you also have a problem with the Publishers who actually publish the material in that state. They have the ability at that point to edit - or even reject - however, as with the likes of Fifty Shades of Badly Written Porn (etc), a good media 'push' will create a feeding frenzy from the casual readership, based on good old FOMO.
ReplyDeleteAnd lest we forget, publishing is first and foremost a business - even though they have 'bowed out' and let agents become the Gatekeepers (mainly as I don't know of any large book publisher who takes submissions directly from the 'general public' anymore.)
As David says above, starving / rejecting authors of the publicity has to start somewhere, and that point would be at the point of release.
John, your point about it being a business is well taken. I'm a business grad, and I certainly see it that way. I guess the thing that bothers me is the monetization of extreme violence against women in entertainment - and that fact that so many men don't even notice it any more. (Not all, of course. This topic was brought up by two two of the best known male thriller writers in Canada, when we were together.) I just worry that if good men tolerate extreme torture of women in their entertainment, what does that mean for us all?
ReplyDeleteActually, as I answer these last few comments (and thank you everyone!) my own thoughts have become more clear. This is what really bothers me: If *good* men tolerate extreme torture of women in their entertainment, what does that mean for us all? I truly don't know, but it scares me.
ReplyDeleteMelodie, I think what's also scary is what's apparently going on in the world of porn, and how that spills over into the expectations of what women should be, should want, should permit. I can't help but think of Kavanaugh's frat motto, "No means yes, and yes means anal"... Scary times.
ReplyDeleteHoly cannoli, I'd never heard that about Kavanaugh's frat motto! Yes, it is scary times. I can't help wondering how our species will continue, when I hear about things like that. Thanks for commenting Eve (although I am now quite shivering)
DeleteI need to do more ruminating on this, but my first reaction is a bit at odds with many of the above comments. When the issue of male torture was brought up, the first thing that came to mind was the male rape scene in Deliverance, a powerful book and a powerful movie. I read the novel and don't recall the specifics of that scene, but the movie was pretty graphic. The rape, of course, drove the rest of the movie (and unfortunately tainted the actor the rest of his career). Would it have been just as effective to have the rape off screen (man crying and screaming in the woods while the camera focuses on his friends)? A tough call, but I don't think it would have been as powerful. Torture porn to me is a phrase used to describe gratuitous violence. That, of course, is in the eye of the beholder. Personally, the power of that scene, central to the entire story, was meant to be upsetting, just as violence in the real world is. I wrote a short story a while back (as yet unpublished) that opens with a husband abusing his wife. The description is short and not THAT violent, but I can understand that women who have been assaulted might cringe and stop reading. Does that mean as crime writers every such scene needs to be off stage? We shoot, stab, behead, hang, poison, and blunt force trauma our victims right in front of the reader's eyes. That no doubt would trigger distaste and loathing to anyone who has suffered such trauma and survived (okay, not the beheading victim). It's a fine line in how far we should go. I've cringed at brutal film or book scenes. But crime stories are not all Miss Marple. I may have regrets about my comments tomorrow morning, but this is my initial gut response.
ReplyDeleteBruce, I guess my point is, the torture-violence against women as entertainment has gotten worse in the past 20 years, to the point that at least two good men I know don't even notice it. That, together with the porn I hear about that has gotten so horrific (and so available) makes me fear for the safety of our young women. I have no idea what to do about it. But I do wory, when good men seem to pass over it without noticing that they have.
ReplyDelete